I got into the civil services because my dad wanted me to become a civil
servant and this probably got decided when I was born. I remember when I was 10
years old, when I had started reading a bit; I saw a piece of paper in which my
father had clearly outlined what I have to do to become an IAS officer. So
that's how it was done.
I was born in Allahabad, Uttar Pradesh. My father was working with the Government. And he
decided to place me in the hostel. I got admission in a renowned Sherwood school in
Nainital which I left in between as I had got homesick. My father made another
attempt and this time it was the famous Colvin Taluqdar’s college in Lucknow.
Later I took admission in Master’s Degree in Political Science in 1978 in
Allahabad University which was considered to be a breeding ground for Civil
Servants. In my first attempt in UPSC in 1980, I was selected for Indian Police
Service. However this did not enthrall my father. So I appeared again and in
1981, I was selected for Indian Administrative Service and was allocated Uttar
Pradesh cadre.
Tell us something about your initial
years in the civil service as a modern-day IAS officer?
My early days very very interesting. I enjoyed thoroughly every
moment that I had in the Lal Bahadur Shastri National Academy Of Administration (LBSNAA)
at Mussoorie. And when I came for district training, I recall an incident when
I had to call on my District Magistrate. I waited in his chamber for about 2
hours but he didn’t turn up. So I came back and used to meet him only formally
in official meetings. It was the year 1982, once when we were playing cards at
the officers club and in the overnight session on the 31st of December, I made
good of Rupees 300 which was quite an amount at that time. That’s probably where
the DM realized my true worth. So after the card session was over, I came back
to my place and I slept. At around 11 PM, someone knocked at the door and I
opened it. I found order in an envelope and when I opened the envelope I found
that I have been posted as sub-Divisional Magistrate (SDM). And it was very
unusual as I was still under training. It is only after training that you get
such positions, but I was given that post and I enjoyed working as an SDM even
as a probationer. Interestingly, after completion of my training, I was not
appointed as SDM, when it was officially due. So that’s how life is, sometimes
you get it by fluke and sometimes you don’t even when you deserve it.
Do you think
that civil service is challenging especially when it comes to dealing with
tricky situations?
I would say yes. Politics is part of an IAS officer’s
life. I recall it was 1984 when a couple of guards of Shrimati Indira Gandhi, the
then Prime Minister, had assassinated her in Delhi and all the hell was broken.
Even in this district Hardoi in UP, where I was posted as Sub Divisional
Magistrate, leaders belonging to a particular political party were singling out
certain Sikh’s shops and burning them.
That is when I got cracking and I did arrest a few of trouble makers. I even
made out a National Security Act (NSA) case against a powerful ruling party
MLA. I submitted the report to the District Magistrate who didn't say anything
to me, but I was soon summoned to Lucknow by the Appointment Secretary asking
me why I had put in such a report. I said that’s the way I felt and I had
sufficient information to see that this guy the MLA is leading all the arson that
was happening. He asked me to withdraw the report. I politely told him that I
have submitted my report and I am nobody to take a decision on its withdrawal. The
decision has to be taken by the District Magistrate, he can reject my report. But the authorities wanted me to withdraw the
report, which I politely refused. Consequent to which I got transferred out of
Hardoi. It was early in my carrier that I discovered transfer does happen in
civil services and very soon I came to the conclusion that for a civil servant,
transfer was like death. It was inevitable. Hence, there was no point in
worrying about it. Instead, subsequently, I had to tell Chief Secretary, when
he was worried about my transfer, that I believe in Hindu Philosophy of transfers
being akin to death: it must occur to all mortal civil servants. So the moment
I understood that the moment I stop expecting things from others, I had a
great life. I lived like a king and I enjoyed what I did. My agreement with the
government was very clear, you decide where you got to post me, and then after I
will do what I have to do and that helped me a lot throughout my career.
What in your an opinion should be the ultimate goal of a civil servant while doing his duty?
Frankly, it's not very complicated, It's fairly
simple. Realization is difficult, but the approach is very simple. The moment
you stop expecting things from others, the moment you come to this conclusion
that you have no control over others, the only control you have is over
yourself, life becomes easy. You do stop expecting you to live a simple life. You
do what you want to do. Now each civil servant has to take a call and decide
what he or she wants in life. That's a very critical question that some of us
don't have an answer, to begin with and sometimes you get very confused whether
I want money, whether I want power, weather to get both money and power, or to
help people. My claim was very simple. I was looking at enjoyment at every
moment I spent in terms of helping people around me and that gives me an enormous
amount of kick of helping people who were virtually helpless. That is what IAS does
to you. You have an opportunity to help so many people.
How did you
so passionately implement the biggest health insurance scheme in India? What
were the outcomes?
I ran a scheme called “Rashtriya Swasthya Bima Yojana”.
This was a smart card-based insurance scheme. It is arguably the biggest health
insurance scheme in the world. I recall one of the visits to Washington when
the then US President Barack Obama's administration advisors wanted me to make
a presentation on this scheme and which I did. There was a representative of
Gates Foundation who walked up to me after the presentation and asked me, Mr. Swarup,
you are a civil servant, and you are seen to be very passionate about the scheme.
What is the Government giving you beyond your salary? It was a very interesting
question. I posed a counter-question and asked him, that if Gates Foundation
does so much good to the poor people, they spend millions of dollars, what do
they get out of it? And he said that, well, that's their job and they derive a
lot of satisfaction out of what they do. I said you answered your own question.
The Rashtriya Swasthya Bima Yojana is meant for the poorest of the poor and all
the good wishes of those that have been benefited under the scheme and those who
have been served come back to me and appreciate the scheme. Somehow that’s good
enough a kick for me to continue to do what I am doing. Then I narrated an
incident to him. In this scheme I used to visit small and medium hospitals. In
one of those visits I was talking to a beneficiary patient. I heard a very fable voice
from behind. I turned around and I saw a very old lady calling me Beta Ji Idhar
Aao. (Come here, my child). I went around, bend down because she couldn't sit,
she was so old and I asked her Mata Ji AAP Kaisi Hai. She said Beta Mein Bahut takleef
Mein Hoon. Lakin hospital Walo Ne Mera Bada Khayal Rakha Hai. I said phirtoh
aap theek ho jayegi, Apna Ghar Jayengi Her response was very interesting. She
said Beta Mera Na Koi Beta Hai, na koi Bhai. Mera koi Nahi Hai. Mai tohb heekh Mangti
Thi. Mai beemar Padhgyi Mera Padosi Wo Bhi Bheekh mangtatha, usneTumhare Card
Dekha. Aur voh card dekhkar MujheYaha Le Aya Hospital May. Hasptal Waale Meri Sewa
Kare Hai Mujhse Paise Bhi Nahi Mangte. Mere pass hai bhi nahi dene ko. Then I
again said nainaimata Ji Phir Bhiaap theek Ho Jayegi. Nai Beta Meri Umar Itni
Ho Gayiab maiuparwale Ke Pass Jaungi. This carried on for a while and then she
made a very remarkable statement. She said Beta upar wale se jakar ik baat zarur
kahungi ki tumhari scheme bahut achi hai. To me I think that's the one of the
biggest kick I had. I call these persons as my Bharat Ratnas. I think that was
the drive that kept me going. That is what I wanted from the civil service and
that is what I would look forward, if I were to born again.
What is your
take on corruption? Should a civil servant make compromises to survive or
there are alternate choices available?
All civil servants must follow ethical codes. You
take a call about what you want to do as a civil servant. I am nobody to advise
anybody on what they should do. I can only say what I did I can only explain
what I did. I can only explain what I got. I can tell you about myself. Others have
to make their own choices. It’s a very personal and individual choice that they
have to decide. I can tell them that I enjoyed thoroughly doing what I did so
they can have this choice as well to do what they want to do. There is a price
to be paid either side. You make in money you pay a bigger price. You don’t make money,
you don't pay a price. So that’s a personal choice that each individual has to
make. You can’t blame anybody else for the choices you had made. I chose a
particular way and I am not saying that’s the best way about it. All I am
saying is, I thoroughly enjoyed it, and then it is for the others to decide. I
can tell them this is what I am. I keep saying “Jo Paave vohi jaane”. (Only the
bearer knows where the shoe pinches). I mean I can’t explain it to anybody else,
you need to experience it. I know of many civil servants who enjoyed being in
the civil service by doing what they were doing. There were many other civil
servants who would have made money and enjoyed as well. So it’s their choice. But
when they get caught or when things go wrong then they should not be blaming
others because they had a choice. What I am trying to say is that there is an
option available. It’s not that the options are not available. Sometimes people
say the circumstances were that you can't do anything else, but what I am
trying to tell them is that there is always an option available. The choice is
yours. Take it or leave it: you have to frame your own code of conduct and
enforce it yourself.
You know that the
opportunity you have in the service is unmatched and that is why so many
people are coming. Un-matched in the sense, if you are honest you can survive if you can dishonest
still you can survive. If you work hard you will survive, if you don’t work you
will survive. If you are efficient you will survive, if you are in-efficient
you just might thrive. I jokingly tell people if you are efficient you might
become Secretary Govt. of India, and if you are in-efficient and lucky you can
become Cabinet Secretary to Govt. of India. So there is no better service: you
can’t think of another service which allows you to commit mistakes yet allows you
to reach the top, wonderful service you can survive or thrive either way that’s the
choice offers you and that’s why it is worth getting this service all over
again. It’s not easy to remain honest in civil service similarly it is not easy
to remain dis-honest in civil service.
How to deal
with political interference? Is being tactful a solution?
My next book, “Ethical Dilemmas of the Civil Servant”,
actually intends to answer these questions. Again, that's a choice you got to
make at that point in time. I have narrated a couple of incidence in my forthcoming
book. One such incident is that of Babri
Masjid agitation was going on and had entered in very bad shape. It was
before the demolition of Masjid and there were rath yatras being taken around
all over the country. I was posted as District Magistrate in Lakhimpur Kheri. I
remember a murder had taken place and the political party wanted to take out a
funeral procession and this party was the ruling party. I denied permission.
This guy, the district president of the ruling party insisted; he wanted to
take this procession out. We got him arrested. But it is not easy to put behind
the bars, the district president of the ruling party. Sure enough, late in the
evening, the Chief Minister rang me up. He said, you have arrested, my
president. I said yes I have. Why he wanted to know? I explained the whole
thing to him? Then he asked me, why can't you release him? I told the moment I
released him, there will be riots here. I also informed him that all other
districts surrounding Lakhimpur Kheri had to impose a curfew. In district
Lakhimpur Kheri, we don't have to impose curfew because everyone believed
whoever did anything wrong District Magistrate will put him behind the bars. As
a District Magistrate of Lakhimpur Kheri, I was very clear in my mind that
irrespective of whoever is involved, law and order is the domain of civil
servants. The CM said fir Kya Kia jaye. Then
I had an answer. It's not that I said only no to him. I told him why don't you
speak to the concerned person and tell him not to take out this procession. It’s
a very sensitive time and then I will release him, the moment he says he will
not take out the procession as I will have no other reason to keep him behind
the bars. I don't know what happened next morning the MLA agreed that he will
not take out a funeral procession. He was released and the situation was
diffused. Now, it would have gone either way. Law and order is in the domain of
civil servants. Politicians have no role to play in the maintenance of law and
order. It is the domain of civil servants. I will give you another example: I
was posted to a place called Member Board of Revenue, considered to be the
second-hand place, because I refused to suspend a few officers that I was asked
to. I said it was not their fault so I did not suspend them. So I volunteered
to move on to a position where no one wanted to go and I enjoyed that position
thoroughly. As member Board of Revenue cased were not being cleared over the
years, I said down in the court and clear those cases and derived an enormous
amount of satisfaction. I could have been transferred so be it because I was
going by my conviction, I was going by what I thought was correct and I was prepared
to take the consequences. Pay the price
if you annoy politicians and they get you transferred. So bear it. It’s very
clear.
For most of the civil servants post-retirement is a dull time. But it seems that you are rather
enjoying it. Any comment?
Well you have rightly evaluated me. I
have been Secretary Coal and Education in the Government of India. I have also
occupied many positions in the State Government. Post-retirement I am going
around the country delivering talks. See the world keeps changing. I mean I don’t
think the world will remain static. I've been interacting with young civil
servants; they are very bright young officers. I tell them that no drive can
come from outside to civil servants especially an IAS officer. What are you
looking for? Except for the kicks, what you get from within and you feel good
about. I travel around 15 to 20 days a month, go to various places, IITs,
IIMs, colleges, universities, scientific
institutions, public sector, private sector, CEOs, they all want to know how do
things happen in the government. I tell them how to make things happen in the Government.
The people outside the Government do not know the Government: they treat
government as moonlight as does government to outsiders. In Government every
civil servant thinks every outsider is corrupt, in outside businesses people think
that all civil servants need money for doing things. Both are wrong, I think there
are good people on either side of the fence. In the private sector I have come
across marvelous people. Similarly, I have worked with outstanding civil
servants. The tragedy is all the rascals and ruffians come together both of in the
public and private. But the good people on the public and private don’t come
together and that something which I am doing post-retirement. I have started a
movement called “nexus of good”, the idea here is to identify good work,
understanding good work, appreciating good work, replicate good work, skill
good work, get good people to talk about each other, get people to standby each
other. The tragedy is every good person is fighting his own battle
individually. Whereas all the rascals and ruffians come together and fight
together. Can we change that, Can we change that narrative and secondly I have
also believed that nation wants to know also the positive things happening
there. I am a very avid reader. I read around 100 books in a year. So I do a lot
of things. So I travel a lot and that helps me to read a lot so there is a lot
to be done in life. 24 hours is a long time, utilize it leisurely.
NOT JUST A CIVIL SERVANT is your
popular book. What message do you want to give to young aspirants who want to
appear for Civil Services?
I thoroughly enjoyed every moment of the journey that I had as a
civil servant for 38 years and if I were to born again, I would like to be an
IAS officer all over for a simple reason that the amount of good that you can do
for a large number of people in the civil service is unmatched. I don’t think
there is any other service anywhere in the world where if you want to do good,
you can do good to a lot of people, or if you want to do nothing, you can still
survive in the service. So it offers you an enormous amount of choice which no
other service does, so I would like to be an IAS officer all over again, if I
were to born again. This is what I have explained in my book and this is what I
want young aspirants to look for.
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