Anil Swarup, IAS : Exclusive Interview

MR ANIL SWARUP IAS, senior civil servant belonging to 1981 batch of UP Cadre shares his experiences with The Indian Civil Servant. Here are the excerpts:

Please tell us what prompted you to join civil services?

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXdq0NWl1i0&t=26s

I got into the civil services because my dad wanted me to become a civil servant and this probably got decided when I was born. I remember when I was 10 years old, when I had started reading a bit; I saw a piece of paper in which my father had clearly outlined what I have to do to become an IAS officer. So that's how it was done.

I was born in Allahabad, Uttar Pradesh.  My father was working with the Government. And he decided to place me in the hostel. I got admission in a renowned Sherwood school in Nainital which I left in between as I had got homesick. My father made another attempt and this time it was the famous Colvin Taluqdar’s college in Lucknow. Later I took admission in Master’s Degree in Political Science in 1978 in Allahabad University which was considered to be a breeding ground for Civil Servants. In my first attempt in UPSC in 1980, I was selected for Indian Police Service. However this did not enthrall my father. So I appeared again and in 1981, I was selected for Indian Administrative Service and was allocated Uttar Pradesh cadre.

Tell us something about your initial years in the civil service as a modern-day IAS officer?

My early days very very interesting. I enjoyed thoroughly every moment that I had in the Lal Bahadur Shastri National Academy Of Administration (LBSNAA) at Mussoorie. And when I came for district training, I recall an incident when I had to call on my District Magistrate. I waited in his chamber for about 2 hours but he didn’t turn up. So I came back and used to meet him only formally in official meetings. It was the year 1982, once when we were playing cards at the officers club and in the overnight session on the 31st of December, I made good of Rupees 300 which was quite an amount at that time. That’s probably where the DM realized my true worth. So after the card session was over, I came back to my place and I slept. At around 11 PM, someone knocked at the door and I opened it. I found order in an envelope and when I opened the envelope I found that I have been posted as sub-Divisional Magistrate (SDM). And it was very unusual as I was still under training. It is only after training that you get such positions, but I was given that post and I enjoyed working as an SDM even as a probationer. Interestingly, after completion of my training, I was not appointed as SDM, when it was officially due. So that’s how life is, sometimes you get it by fluke and sometimes you don’t even when you deserve it.

 

Do you think that civil service is challenging especially when it comes to dealing with tricky situations?

 I would say yes. Politics is part of an IAS officer’s life. I recall it was 1984 when a couple of guards of Shrimati Indira Gandhi, the then Prime Minister, had assassinated her in Delhi and all the hell was broken. Even in this district Hardoi in UP, where I was posted as Sub Divisional Magistrate, leaders belonging to a particular political party were singling out certain Sikh’s shops and burning them. That is when I got cracking and I did arrest a few of trouble makers. I even made out a National Security Act (NSA) case against a powerful ruling party MLA. I submitted the report to the District Magistrate who didn't say anything to me, but I was soon summoned to Lucknow by the Appointment Secretary asking me why I had put in such a report. I said that’s the way I felt and I had sufficient information to see that this guy the MLA is leading all the arson that was happening. He asked me to withdraw the report. I politely told him that I have submitted my report and I am nobody to take a decision on its withdrawal. The decision has to be taken by the District Magistrate, he can reject my report.  But the authorities wanted me to withdraw the report, which I politely refused. Consequent to which I got transferred out of Hardoi. It was early in my carrier that I discovered transfer does happen in civil services and very soon I came to the conclusion that for a civil servant, transfer was like death. It was inevitable. Hence, there was no point in worrying about it. Instead, subsequently, I had to tell Chief Secretary, when he was worried about my transfer, that I believe in Hindu Philosophy of transfers being akin to death: it must occur to all mortal civil servants. So the moment I understood that the moment I stop expecting things from others, I had a great life. I lived like a king and I enjoyed what I did. My agreement with the government was very clear, you decide where you got to post me, and then after I will do what I have to do and that helped me a lot throughout my career.

 

What in your an opinion should be the ultimate goal of a civil servant while doing his duty?

 Frankly, it's not very complicated, It's fairly simple. Realization is difficult, but the approach is very simple. The moment you stop expecting things from others, the moment you come to this conclusion that you have no control over others, the only control you have is over yourself, life becomes easy. You do stop expecting you to live a simple life. You do what you want to do. Now each civil servant has to take a call and decide what he or she wants in life. That's a very critical question that some of us don't have an answer, to begin with and sometimes you get very confused whether I want money, whether I want power, weather to get both money and power, or to help people. My claim was very simple. I was looking at enjoyment at every moment I spent in terms of helping people around me and that gives me an enormous amount of kick of helping people who were virtually helpless. That is what IAS does to you. You have an opportunity to help so many people.

 

How did you so passionately implement the biggest health insurance scheme in India? What were the outcomes?

I ran a scheme called “Rashtriya Swasthya Bima Yojana”. This was a smart card-based insurance scheme. It is arguably the biggest health insurance scheme in the world. I recall one of the visits to Washington when the then US President Barack Obama's administration advisors wanted me to make a presentation on this scheme and which I did. There was a representative of Gates Foundation who walked up to me after the presentation and asked me, Mr. Swarup, you are a civil servant, and you are seen to be very passionate about the scheme. What is the Government giving you beyond your salary? It was a very interesting question. I posed a counter-question and asked him, that if Gates Foundation does so much good to the poor people, they spend millions of dollars, what do they get out of it? And he said that, well, that's their job and they derive a lot of satisfaction out of what they do. I said you answered your own question. The Rashtriya Swasthya Bima Yojana is meant for the poorest of the poor and all the good wishes of those that have been benefited under the scheme and those who have been served come back to me and appreciate the scheme. Somehow that’s good enough a kick for me to continue to do what I am doing. Then I narrated an incident to him. In this scheme I used to visit small and medium hospitals. In one of those visits I was talking to a beneficiary patient. I heard a very fable voice from behind. I turned around and I saw a very old lady calling me Beta Ji Idhar Aao. (Come here, my child). I went around, bend down because she couldn't sit, she was so old and I asked her Mata Ji AAP Kaisi Hai. She said Beta Mein Bahut takleef Mein Hoon. Lakin hospital Walo Ne Mera Bada Khayal Rakha Hai. I said phirtoh aap theek ho jayegi, Apna Ghar Jayengi Her response was very interesting. She said Beta Mera Na Koi Beta Hai, na koi Bhai. Mera koi Nahi Hai. Mai tohb heekh Mangti Thi. Mai beemar Padhgyi Mera Padosi Wo Bhi Bheekh mangtatha, usneTumhare Card Dekha. Aur voh card dekhkar MujheYaha Le Aya Hospital May. Hasptal Waale Meri Sewa Kare Hai Mujhse Paise Bhi Nahi Mangte. Mere pass hai bhi nahi dene ko. Then I again said nainaimata Ji Phir Bhiaap theek Ho Jayegi. Nai Beta Meri Umar Itni Ho Gayiab maiuparwale Ke Pass Jaungi. This carried on for a while and then she made a very remarkable statement. She said Beta upar wale se jakar ik baat zarur kahungi ki tumhari scheme bahut achi hai. To me I think that's the one of the biggest kick I had. I call these persons as my Bharat Ratnas. I think that was the drive that kept me going. That is what I wanted from the civil service and that is what I would look forward, if I were to born again.

 

What is your take on corruption? Should a civil servant make compromises to survive or there are alternate choices available?

 All civil servants must follow ethical codes. You take a call about what you want to do as a civil servant. I am nobody to advise anybody on what they should do. I can only say what I did I can only explain what I did. I can only explain what I got. I can tell you about myself. Others have to make their own choices. It’s a very personal and individual choice that they have to decide. I can tell them that I enjoyed thoroughly doing what I did so they can have this choice as well to do what they want to do. There is a price to be paid either side. You make in money you pay a bigger price. You don’t make money, you don't pay a price. So that’s a personal choice that each individual has to make. You can’t blame anybody else for the choices you had made. I chose a particular way and I am not saying that’s the best way about it. All I am saying is, I thoroughly enjoyed it, and then it is for the others to decide. I can tell them this is what I am. I keep saying “Jo Paave vohi jaane”. (Only the bearer knows where the shoe pinches). I mean I can’t explain it to anybody else, you need to experience it. I know of many civil servants who enjoyed being in the civil service by doing what they were doing. There were many other civil servants who would have made money and enjoyed as well. So it’s their choice. But when they get caught or when things go wrong then they should not be blaming others because they had a choice. What I am trying to say is that there is an option available. It’s not that the options are not available. Sometimes people say the circumstances were that you can't do anything else, but what I am trying to tell them is that there is always an option available. The choice is yours. Take it or leave it: you have to frame your own code of conduct and enforce it yourself.

You know that the opportunity you have in the service is unmatched and that is why so many people are coming. Un-matched in the sense, if you are honest you can survive if you can dishonest still you can survive. If you work hard you will survive, if you don’t work you will survive. If you are efficient you will survive, if you are in-efficient you just might thrive. I jokingly tell people if you are efficient you might become Secretary Govt. of India, and if you are in-efficient and lucky you can become Cabinet Secretary to Govt. of India. So there is no better service: you can’t think of another service which allows you to commit mistakes yet allows you to reach the top, wonderful service you can survive or thrive either way that’s the choice offers you and that’s why it is worth getting this service all over again. It’s not easy to remain honest in civil service similarly it is not easy to remain dis-honest in civil service.

 

How to deal with political interference? Is being tactful a solution?

My next book, “Ethical Dilemmas of the Civil Servant”, actually intends to answer these questions. Again, that's a choice you got to make at that point in time. I have narrated a couple of incidence in my forthcoming book. One such incident is that of  Babri Masjid agitation was going on and had entered in very bad shape. It was before the demolition of Masjid and there were rath yatras being taken around all over the country. I was posted as District Magistrate in Lakhimpur Kheri. I remember a murder had taken place and the political party wanted to take out a funeral procession and this party was the ruling party. I denied permission. This guy, the district president of the ruling party insisted; he wanted to take this procession out. We got him arrested. But it is not easy to put behind the bars, the district president of the ruling party. Sure enough, late in the evening, the Chief Minister rang me up. He said, you have arrested, my president. I said yes I have. Why he wanted to know? I explained the whole thing to him? Then he asked me, why can't you release him? I told the moment I released him, there will be riots here. I also informed him that all other districts surrounding Lakhimpur Kheri had to impose a curfew. In district Lakhimpur Kheri, we don't have to impose curfew because everyone believed whoever did anything wrong District Magistrate will put him behind the bars. As a District Magistrate of Lakhimpur Kheri, I was very clear in my mind that irrespective of whoever is involved, law and order is the domain of civil servants. The CM said fir Kya Kia jaye.  Then I had an answer. It's not that I said only no to him. I told him why don't you speak to the concerned person and tell him not to take out this procession. It’s a very sensitive time and then I will release him, the moment he says he will not take out the procession as I will have no other reason to keep him behind the bars. I don't know what happened next morning the MLA agreed that he will not take out a funeral procession. He was released and the situation was diffused. Now, it would have gone either way. Law and order is in the domain of civil servants. Politicians have no role to play in the maintenance of law and order. It is the domain of civil servants. I will give you another example: I was posted to a place called Member Board of Revenue, considered to be the second-hand place, because I refused to suspend a few officers that I was asked to. I said it was not their fault so I did not suspend them. So I volunteered to move on to a position where no one wanted to go and I enjoyed that position thoroughly. As member Board of Revenue cased were not being cleared over the years, I said down in the court and clear those cases and derived an enormous amount of satisfaction. I could have been transferred so be it because I was going by my conviction, I was going by what I thought was correct and I was prepared to take the consequences. Pay the price if you annoy politicians and they get you transferred. So bear it. It’s very clear.

 

For most of the civil servants post-retirement is a dull time. But it seems that you are rather enjoying it. Any comment?

 Well you have rightly evaluated me. I have been Secretary Coal and Education in the Government of India. I have also occupied many positions in the State Government. Post-retirement I am going around the country delivering talks. See the world keeps changing. I mean I don’t think the world will remain static. I've been interacting with young civil servants; they are very bright young officers. I tell them that no drive can come from outside to civil servants especially an IAS officer. What are you looking for? Except for the kicks, what you get from within and you feel good about. I travel around 15 to 20 days a month, go to various places, IITs, IIMs,  colleges, universities, scientific institutions, public sector, private sector, CEOs, they all want to know how do things happen in the government. I tell them how to make things happen in the Government. The people outside the Government do not know the Government: they treat government as moonlight as does government to outsiders. In Government every civil servant thinks every outsider is corrupt, in outside businesses people think that all civil servants need money for doing things. Both are wrong, I think there are good people on either side of the fence. In the private sector I have come across marvelous people. Similarly, I have worked with outstanding civil servants. The tragedy is all the rascals and ruffians come together both of in the public and private. But the good people on the public and private don’t come together and that something which I am doing post-retirement. I have started a movement called “nexus of good”, the idea here is to identify good work, understanding good work, appreciating good work, replicate good work, skill good work, get good people to talk about each other, get people to standby each other. The tragedy is every good person is fighting his own battle individually. Whereas all the rascals and ruffians come together and fight together. Can we change that, Can we change that narrative and secondly I have also believed that nation wants to know also the positive things happening there. I am a very avid reader. I read around 100 books in a year. So I do a lot of things. So I travel a lot and that helps me to read a lot so there is a lot to be done in life. 24 hours is a long time, utilize it leisurely.    

 

 

NOT JUST A CIVIL SERVANT is your popular book. What message do you want to give to young aspirants who want to appear for Civil Services?

 I thoroughly enjoyed every moment of the journey that I had as a civil servant for 38 years and if I were to born again, I would like to be an IAS officer all over for a simple reason that the amount of good that you can do for a large number of people in the civil service is unmatched. I don’t think there is any other service anywhere in the world where if you want to do good, you can do good to a lot of people, or if you want to do nothing, you can still survive in the service. So it offers you an enormous amount of choice which no other service does, so I would like to be an IAS officer all over again, if I were to born again. This is what I have explained in my book and this is what I want young aspirants to look for.

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXdq0NWl1i0&t=26s

View Video Interview of Anil Swarup IAS

RAGHAV CHANDRA, IAS: Exclusive Interview

Mr Raghav Chandra IAS 1982, Madya Pradesh Cadre, spoke to ‘The Indian Civil Servant’ about his experiences in a long career in Civil Services: The excerpts: (January  2020)

 

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Q: What inspired you to join civil services? Was it in the family?

RAGHAV CHANDRA:  Yes. My father was in the State Government Service in UP. He had worked with the various ICS and senior IAS officers. His life’s dream was to see me in the IAS. Therefore the level of family indoctrination was very strong that I should get into the IAS and make it. Both my parents from time to time, used to express their desire that I should make it. I was studying in La Martiniere school in Lucknow at that time. Afterwards, I came to St. Stephens College Delhi in 1975. One of the reasons why I choose to do mathematics honors was that I should score good marks in the IAS examination. I continued to do my M.Sc in Maths and at one stage I wanted to go abroad do PhD in Maths and I got fascinated by the subject. But the indoctrination for civil services was so strong that I was practically, emotionally and psychologically forced to appear for the Civil Services exam. It’s my destiny and chance that I did make it and I did succeed in getting into the IAS in 1982 batch and I got the Madhya Pradesh Cadre. My first choice was Uttar Pradesh and also wanted to join the Foreign Service. But finally I got Madhya Pradesh.

Although decisions like this are not entirely based on what your parents want you to do. Ultimately after all I spent 5 years in college and I was mature enough to form my own expectations, my own understanding of the civil service and I thought it was the great opportunity to do service for the society as a whole, to be able to change India, to be able to change the things it works. There were times with which one was not comfortable with. If you remember that was the time when emergency had been evoked so there was a lot of enthusiasm among the students like me about how the nation should really function and it should truly be a democratic and open inclusive society. There was also this thing about ensuring that there was justice to the weaker section of society and one was having being brought up in a very liberal, tolerant, inclusive environment such as in Delhi so I was very keen to actually get into the service myself too, essentially to be able to improve the lot of people as a whole and I must say that at the end of the day I am reasonably satisfied with the journey. At the end of the day, well that is how it is and I have completed my full innings of 36 years in the service and occupied all important positions in State  and Govt of India.

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Q: Tell us about your journey in the IAS. Any interesting anecdotes?

RAGHAV CHANDRA: The journey has been one long journey. Literally I started of with Satna in Madhya Pradesh then I went to Ashok Nagar in Guna in a different division. I have been to different corners like I have been posted in Korba which is today in Chattisgarh but at that time it was intrinsic part of Madhya Pradesh and having being posted in a Tribal area like Korba one travelled to absolutely way out places like Leh Maru which people said is actually “LeMaru”  and it was a remote tribal area Syang to Pondioprora to Sarguja to Jashpur Nagar. These are the places pretty far out and which people don’t normally go to Bastar and then I got transferred as a Collector to an absolutely dramatically opposite part of the state that is Khandava. So when I travelled by car on transfer it took me two days having made various stops in there to reach Khandava. You can imagine the geographical distance that states like undivided Madhya Pradesh had and in the course of service one does have to travel not only within one state but abroad also. I got to travel for various trainings to the US, to Europe, to Australia and to various other places which in the normal course a person would not get to travel. So to that extent you rise in Civil Service and navigate a tremendous journey its but more than an physical journey it’s also a journey of ideas, of thoughts, of experiences, of meeting different people. A very wide range of people one bumps into from film stars to sports people to politicians to writers and to other extreme the poor, the deprived, the disadvantaged and the people who actually represent the lowest starta of society and for whom there is a tremendous amount one can devote and aspire to mitigate their grievances.

Click below for video link on Youtube 

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          I must say that in civil service, you get to meet such a wide variety of people. For instance when I was posted in Khandava and I must mention that in Khandava which is famous for legendary singer like Kishore Kumar and Kishore Kumar used to call himself as ‘Khandavawala’. Unfortunately, I arrived on the scene just after Kishore Kumar had expired and his body has been cremated in Khandava as per his wishes. There was a tremendous amount of a love and affection for him in public. It so happened that on one day while inspecting the city I came across a beautiful old cottage in the heart of the city in the road called Bombay Bazaar because of Khandava’s historical association with Bombay. And wow there was this house which belongs to a Ganguly Parivaar and that was Kishore Kumar’s house. He used to live in there. It has a four bedrooms and various little little artifacts. So I decided to build a Kishore Kumar music Museum and it would have been the country’s first musical museum. On my invite Anoop Kumar came over, Leena Chandervarkar came over, Sumit Kumar and  Amit Kumar came over and we organized “Zindagi ka Safar” music competition and invited entries from all over the country. It turned out to be a big show.

Q: Would you agree that ethical standards are declining among young officers. What can be done to remedy the situation?

RAGHAV CHANDRA: Ethics is a set of standards that society adopts for itself and which help guide behavior, choices and actions. Also how do we conduct ourselves in personal life or public life? It is sense of right and wrong about our culture and civilization. For example the code of ethical conduct for civil servants demands allegiance to constitution, maintain highest ethical standards. Maintain integrity, absolute devotion to duty, not indulging in any conduct which is unbecoming of Government servant; avoid conflict of interest and apolitical functioning etc. In my considered opinion all civil servants should follow the ethical path through out their career. I have great hope from coming generations. And I do not believe that ethical standards are on the decline. However, perception to look into and respond to conflicting situations may have undergone a change.

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Q: You have been working for Tiger protection in India. You have also written a book on the subject. How this burning issue of wildlife conservation attracted your attention?

RAGHAV CHANDRA: When I was posted in Bhopal and that was the year when practically a tiger was getting killed in some part of the country every day. That was the time when Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh Sahab ordered CBI enquiry regarding disappearance of the Tigers from Sariska Tiger Reserve in Rajasthan. There was also a whole furrow about disappearance of Tigers from Panna National Tiger Park in MP. Then I began to research the subject. I spoke to dozens of forest officers; I interviewed people around all over the forest department and met many other people who were connected with the forest. I came to the conclusion that this was the subject which needed to be brought up to the people as a story, as a narrative about how India’s wildlife has depleted through the ages, about how it had become a passion for the British to shoot wildlife. The kind of denudation and degradation brought to our jungles and therefore I captured it through my book “Scent of a Game” published by RUPA and which talks about the entire history of wildlife Shikari India, The Maharajas and even modern day poaching and what happens to the international trade to the endangered species and it was well received and I am glad to say that this is a subject that has generated a lot of interest. The most gratifying moment in this was when recently I was invited to the Prime Minister’s house as one of the selected invitees when the “Tiger Survey Report” for 2019 was released and it is very heartening to note that Tiger population has once again started growing and has become reasonably significant.

Click below for video link on Youtube 

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Q: You have also authored another book on dalit issues in Indian bureaucracy. Can you tell us more about it?

RAGHAV CHANDRA: It’s a fiction revolving around a dalit girl who despite all odds joins Indian Foreign Service (IFS). The story in short goes like this. On a chilly November morning in Geneva, Deepika prepares to address the United Nations Human Rights Council. Despite her personal experience of oppression as a dalit woman, she must claim that the Indian Government remains firmly committed to eradicating caste-based discrimination in the country. As echoes of humiliation and atrocities flood her memory, Deepika is transported back in time, to almost six years ago, when she became the first member of her family to be selected for the Indian Civil Services. She had moved from Bhopal, her home town, to the Lal Bahadur Shastri National Academy of Administration in Mussoorie, to start a career as an IFS officer. It was here that she met Aman, an upper-caste Brahmin, and Vijay, a fellow dalit. Both relationships defined by caste and class politics, Deepika had found her in the crosshairs of an ancient history built on inequality and prejudice. Yet, as a diplomat from Indian Foreign Service, she must deny caste, and the fact that India's fractured society, despite its apparent modernization and progress, remains stuck in the middle ages. Her father's words come back to haunt her: ‘When you cannot fight the system, you must endure. ‘will Deepika fight? Will she endure? What will she say to the Human Rights Council? How will she represent India to the rest of the world? This is all you will find in my book published by MACMILIAN.

Q: Hundreds of young boys and girls aspire to join civil services every year.  What message would you like to convey to them?

RAGHAV CHANDRA: I would say that Civil Services still offers a very very exciting career, vide variety, lot of intense dealing with issues and you have the opportunity to do everything that you want to in terms of delivering on the grounds. I think there is a great opportunity for people who are stable in their minds, people who are not flashy, people who are not looking for becoming billionaires but who want to lead a comfortable and satisfactory life which is socially responsible and where they want to serve humanity. The essence for all those who wants to enter the Civil Services should be that you are entering into a service basically for fulfilling yourself as a person who serves people and not as somebody who wants to serve a particular mandate to earn money, to become rich, to lead a flashy life style and to be ostentatious. Given a choice I would once again be a Civil Servant because whatever I am today is because of the Civil Service as it’s given me the platform to really enquire explore and achieve what was good and what was the best for me. Post retirement here is a lot to do even now and whatever I may achieve even now would thankfully be attributed to my long association with the Civil Services.

Click below for video link on Youtube 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtG6URrpyvU